Curse

Krill · Jan 16, 2010, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Moreover, the usual Defy Pain warriors do NOT do big damage.

Defy pain with a normal axe bar (dismember, executioner's, d-chop, bulls, frenzy, rush) and a superior axe rune it actually does do pretty respectable damage with enhanced survivability. It discourages other warriors from linebacking all day and reduces other crap like mind blast and IoP to very little damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Sad as it is, I havent yet met a mel resilience necro (I even thought of trying it myself once, but changed my mind).

I use to run it when SoM mesmers and R/P spear chuckers were very common. After the FF nerf it's not terribly effective though.

Ariena Najea · Jan 16, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I actually saw someone the other day running Defy Pain with Conjure Lightning in addition to Shock, and it wasn't too bad. You can actually sit in Frenzy somewhat with Defy Pain up, and the extra damage from Conjure really showed. The guy was running Sword instead of Axe though, likely for Sun and Moon spikes with Conjure.

Bobby2 · Jan 16, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's a shockaxe without eviscerate that won't melt in 5 seconds.

Funny you would say that, since while running Evis and Frenzy suiciding I've often found myself not dying fast enough to my liking.

Defy Pain is a griefing skill - in theory a good warrior could be (almost) as effective as with PRage (if it weren't for bar compression) but why'd he run Defy then in the first place except to piss people off?

Krill · Jan 16, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

but why'd he run Defy then in the first place except to piss people off?

Because there isn't really a dominant elite skill for axe warriors. You can run a superior axe rune, sentinel insignias, clarity / resto runes and still have plenty of health with defy pain. R/A's and hammer warriors trying to lineback are just wasting their time, as well as mind blasters that spam on the same target until it dies.

Snow Bunny · Jan 16, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Because there isn't really a dominant elite skill for axe warriors. You can run a superior axe rune, sentinel insignias, clarity / resto runes and still have plenty of health with defy pain. R/A's and hammer warriors trying to lineback are just wasting their time, as well as mind blasters that spam on the same target until it dies.

Pretty much this.

It's very nice to sit in frenzy while little -1's and -2's instead of the fat -30's ding off your armor.

In RA, where your chances of getting a monk are 25%, and your chances of a monk that will last 5 wins are 2%, it helps to have survivability.

I ran it a week ago and had multiple 20 point streaks with non-monk teams, only because all four characters had high damage and survivability.

bungusmaximus · Jan 16, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

When I enter RA, I want to make a decent amount of wins, possibly 25. That is where I'm "getting to".

This is true, it just gets annoying whe I want to run something goofy and I get flamed over and over by so called pro's that directly assume I bought the game one day ago :P. What other place is there that I can run silly builds then RA without too much hassle? Usuall I try and pull my weight, I never bail ou on teams, I never trashtalk anyone. Glads farmers leave me be

For you it's different tho since the only place where u can go nowadays for some arena battles is RA, I feel bad for u that TA is gone

.

Greedy Gus · Jan 17, 2010, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's not defy pain with a series of other survival skills - it's Defy Pain/Dismember/BodyBlow/Bulls/Frenzy/Rush/Rez/Optional (dchop/shock).

You're still doing very big damage - you're just losing the +36 or so from eviscerate, but because you're pulling off your adrenal spike more often.

You just have more survivability, which you gave up an interrupt or a kd for (probably give up dchop but that's me).

Well thats a favorable way of putting it, because eviscerate is barely ever usable over dismember these days. In reality you're more likely directly exchanging a magehunter strike every 3 seconds for a defy pain that drains a shot of adren every 20 seconds and that you don't need if you draw a monk. Or giving up the utility of whirling axe which beats the key defense in RA (stances). Or being a hammer war or a cripslash, the list goes on.

I Jonas I · Jan 18, 2010, 09:44 PM // 21:44

I've been running the old Hammersword build that was really overpowered a while back, but still works pretty effectively now (you just can't quarterknock people repeatedly for 20 seconds straight anymore)

Dev Hammer
Frenzy
Steelfang Slash
Sever Artery
Gash
Rush
Bulls Strike
Res Sig

it's pretty cool because you get the knockdowns and linebacking ability of a dev hammer combined with the pressure and DPS of a sword warrior. that, and it's so incredibly fun to play.

Stranger The Ranger · Jan 18, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Power Leech
Power Spike
Diversion
Shame
Empathy
Ether Feast
Drain Enchantment
Res Sig

Power Leech is suprisingly effective.
Lollerpwn Monks, Necro's and Eles, Empathy for general melee hate, some Enchant removal and survivability.
Oh, and there's nothing better than landing a Power Spike on a monk's last, life-saving WoH.

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Surprise is severely underrated in RA.

Off-the-wall builds are frequently far more effective for anyone that doesn't care to play a meta build for six hours a day in order to master it. The problem with a meta build is that quality opponents come equipped with counters and strategies for defeating it.

Gimmick won't win indefinitely. But it does win.

bungusmaximus · Jan 19, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Surprise is severely underrated in RA.

Off-the-wall builds are frequently far more effective for anyone that doesn't care to play a meta build for six hours a day in order to master it. The problem with a meta build is that quality opponents come equipped with counters and strategies for defeating it.

Gimmick won't win indefinitely. But it does win.

LOL true, ive lost games to a dshot monk that dshotted someones WoH, a thunderclap ele that timed it with a quarterknock, death's charge->blackout mesmers and the list goes on

. Those LOLWTFJUSTHAPPENED builds can be pretty mean.

Ariena Najea · Jan 20, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

LOL true, ive lost games to a dshot monk that dshotted someones WoH, a thunderclap ele that timed it with a quarterknock, death's charge->blackout mesmers and the list goes on

. Those LOLWTFJUSTHAPPENED builds can be pretty mean.

I often bring Dshot while Monking myself. Works wonders on the Palm Strikers too!

Ran into a teammate a week ago that brought a Wastrel's Collapse Blackout build... he made people cry.

urania · Jan 20, 2010, 08:49 AM // 08:49

If a D shot monk takes you off by surprise you're not expecting particularly much then - when you see a mo/r or even a me/r there's less than a handful of options they could take that are good, that is d shot, mel resilience or nat stride...but the last mo/r i saw rushed in like a wammo trying to nail something with d shot right off the start, so yeah..if THAT's not obvious then i dont know what it is.
Sadly, a wastrels colapse mesmer was a typical gimick build in TA (with some variations to the teleport itself) used in dual MB spammer teams.
Moreover, its obvious you'll be kded in thunderclap or any kind of other aoe (like savannah heat) if you dont move out of it instantly -at least sometimes it is, because more often than not the better players dont use the kind of aoe (its predictable and hence prone to disruption or simply useless with fast kiters).
I have yet to come across something thatd actually prove unpredictable and effective. Otherwise, one can even call the wammos full of surprise (ive seen all kinds already, from frenzied df ZB wammos to defy pain breeze, vig spirit and live vicar. wammos) - you never know what they're gonna bring!

Jeydra · Jan 20, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

If a D shot monk takes you off by surprise you're not expecting particularly much then - when you see a mo/r or even a me/r there's less than a handful of options they could take that are good, that is d shot, mel resilience or nat stride...but the last mo/r i saw rushed in like a wammo trying to nail something with d shot right off the start, so yeah..if THAT's not obvious then i dont know what it is.
Sadly, a wastrels colapse mesmer was a typical gimick build in TA (with some variations to the teleport itself) used in dual MB spammer teams.
Moreover, its obvious you'll be kded in thunderclap or any kind of other aoe (like savannah heat) if you dont move out of it instantly -at least sometimes it is, because more often than not the better players dont use the kind of aoe (its predictable and hence prone to disruption or simply useless with fast kiters).
I have yet to come across something thatd actually prove unpredictable and effective. Otherwise, one can even call the wammos full of surprise (ive seen all kinds already, from frenzied df ZB wammos to defy pain breeze, vig spirit and live vicar. wammos) - you never know what they're gonna bring!

It's a good point but there are - at least I've seen some / used some - builds that are mildly effective and completely unpredictable. They are less effective than standard yes (if they were as effective they wouldn't be unpredictable anymore), but still effective enough to be dangerous. Most striking would be those that spec into the secondary and bring something based on that; E/A Daggers and Rt/A Daggers for example. If you see an E/A on the other team who's good enough not to hold Daggers or cast Conjure Lightning where you can see it, then he can certainly surprise you with Ride The Lightning -> some kind of dangerous dagger chain. If you're Monking and have stances then you're of course invulnerable in the short term, but he can get some squishy ally of yours.

By the way I'm surprised you still play urania, I would've expected you to quit with the removal of TA (but then, Identity didn't quite either so ...)

Revelations · Jan 20, 2010, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's a good point but there are - at least I've seen some / used some - builds that are mildly effective and completely unpredictable. They are less effective than standard yes (if they were as effective they wouldn't be unpredictable anymore), but still effective enough to be dangerous. Most striking would be those that spec into the secondary and bring something based on that; E/A Daggers and Rt/A Daggers for example. If you see an E/A on the other team who's good enough not to hold Daggers or cast Conjure Lightning where you can see it, then he can certainly surprise you with Ride The Lightning -> some kind of dangerous dagger chain. If you're Monking and have stances then you're of course invulnerable in the short term, but he can get some squishy ally of yours.

Initial monk positioning in RA puts you well behind your teammates. Anything /A running closer than just inside earshot range of your teammates is pretty good grounds for determining his build quick. RTL with daggers is no threat to a properly positioned monk, and though it may rack up some damage on a squishy teammate it's nothing that current redbar skills wont mop up if you miss the guardian.

After the match has well and truly begun these things can come as a nasty surprise at a bad time if you didn't spot them earlier. However, the only reason you shouldn't have spotted them earlier is because they were refraining from actually using their full skillbar, the relief of pressure of which allows you to monk much more aggressively. If your teammates are capable then monking aggressively should create enough of an imbalance that any nasty surprises don't much influence the game by that point.

urania · Jan 20, 2010, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's a good point but there are - at least I've seen some / used some - builds that are mildly effective and completely unpredictable. They are less effective than standard yes (if they were as effective they wouldn't be unpredictable anymore), but still effective enough to be dangerous. Most striking would be those that spec into the secondary and bring something based on that; E/A Daggers and Rt/A Daggers for example. If you see an E/A on the other team who's good enough not to hold Daggers or cast Conjure Lightning where you can see it, then he can certainly surprise you with Ride The Lightning -> some kind of dangerous dagger chain. If you're Monking and have stances then you're of course invulnerable in the short term, but he can get some squishy ally of yours.

By the way I'm surprised you still play urania, I would've expected you to quit with the removal of TA (but then, Identity didn't quite either so ...)

ive faced a few nasty surprises a few days ago...tripple sin team with a monk where at least 2 sins had a 2nd proff elite..one with coward, the other with enraged smash...the third was moebius strike or something - endless lineback wars won them the game there, along with an unfortunate exhausting assault on my word.
Ive also seen a sin with magehunters (the hammer kd) to get his chain off, so thats another instance of unpredictable+effective. In TA, I've faced a reverse build of that, enraged smash w/a with dagger attacks and hammer bash, which also proved to be quite nasty, as long as the elite hit/wasnt disrupted.

In any case, made 25 today again as mesmer (hexway with curse necro, a prage warrior and mel resilience healer xd), so my point about hexways being one of the strongest builds in RA still stands strong.

Anyhow, I still play, but mostly AB, RA and HA, I do CA once per week or so, maybe more if i am lucky with finding teammates. After all this time there's still no other game really thatd appeal to me as much as GW...not liking HoN much when I saw the gameplay.

Jeydra · Jan 20, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Initial monk positioning in RA puts you well behind your teammates. Anything /A running closer than just inside earshot range of your teammates is pretty good grounds for determining his build quick. RTL with daggers is no threat to a properly positioned monk, and though it may rack up some damage on a squishy teammate it's nothing that current redbar skills wont mop up if you miss the guardian.

After the match has well and truly begun these things can come as a nasty surprise at a bad time if you didn't spot them earlier. However, the only reason you shouldn't have spotted them earlier is because they were refraining from actually using their full skillbar, the relief of pressure of which allows you to monk much more aggressively. If your teammates are capable then monking aggressively should create enough of an imbalance that any nasty surprises don't much influence the game by that point.

Of course RTL Daggers is no threat to a properly positioned Monk. In fact if the RTL Daggers picks the Monk as the first target chances are very good he's a bad RTL Daggers (there are exceptions though), for the simple reason that Monks are invulnerable to Daggers in the short term. Anything running /A and running closer than earshot range can be anything however, because it's entirely possible he's running close to stop his target from running away / get in range of you (the Monk). By the way RTL spikers don't have to get any closer than earshot range.

As for being able to mop up with redbar heals, obviously. While under no pressure it's a trivial matter to catch a single-player spike. While under pressure is an entirely different matter, and that is the time when RTL Daggers scores kills. Even if the RTL Daggers isn't using his full skillbar, 3 players can apply plenty of pressure.

PS: Two things. One, not noticing the RTL Daggers after his first spike means you're a rather bad Monk because you really ought to have seen the quick health drop (not to mention the very noticable RTL animation). Two, RTL Daggers is dangerous not only to Monks, but also to other characters. If you're a Necro for example, then you are the ideal target, and you want to drop Insidious / Faintheartedness on the Ele before he spikes you - or else simply stay as far away from him as possible such that he has to overextend to get to you. Since you can't tell at once that E/A is RTL Daggers, you're vulnerable, and you can easily go from being vulnerable to being dead, and from being dead to losing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

ive faced a few nasty surprises a few days ago...tripple sin team with a monk where at least 2 sins had a 2nd proff elite..one with coward, the other with enraged smash...the third was moebius strike or something - endless lineback wars won them the game there, along with an unfortunate exhausting assault on my word.
Ive also seen a sin with magehunters (the hammer kd) to get his chain off, so thats another instance of unpredictable+effective. In TA, I've faced a reverse build of that, enraged smash w/a with dagger attacks and hammer bash, which also proved to be quite nasty, as long as the elite hit/wasnt disrupted.

That's not that nasty to be honest, because they still fall into the broad class of "melee damage" against which you apply similar tactics ... the most dangerous are those that go from "caster pressure" or "antimelee spammer" to "melee damage" (especially since melee damage is the most dangerous kind of damage in the game). Still when you have no Monk then falling prey to a surprise Headbutt + Plague Touch for example can be the end of you.

I still play RA, but very very occasionally (like once every month), not to mention I play less and less everyday so I'll probably never get to next rank. I haven't even gotten to 25 wins once; I think I got to 23-24 before losing to an EDA Derv (lol), which I didn't notice in time to use Spotless on my team's War. Kind of a pity, but that shows how much pressure even two characters can output (the other team had a Monk too).

Snow Bunny · Jan 20, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Wastrel's Collapse+Flurry+Falling Spider+HoTO+Falling Lotus Strike+Twisting Fangs, coupled with fox's promise, means you blow monks to pieces.

Martin Alvito · Jan 23, 2010, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Anything with two elites is going to blast monks to bits.

Effective surprise builds: back when Reaper's Mark was hacks, I used to take a Necro/Mes in with Reaper's Mark and a bunch of off-the-wall utility Mesmer skills and hard interrupts (stuff that's ordinarily garbage like Web of Disruption). It just ate people, largely because people just didn't know what to do about it.

At the moment if I'm bored I'll take a Wastrel's Collapse bar with Shock on an Ele. Used to be a lot more effective before the meta became so anti-melee. The advantages over a standard WC are: surprise, deep energy pool that permits you to add Shock to the bar for quarterknocks and chains while WC is down, ability to kill targets that cuddle up to their friends, and extra damage in the chain over A/E (surprisingly).

The only price you pay is a bit of extra squishiness. I find it's more than worth the tradeoff.

Giant with Spear · Jan 24, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

I play as a necro often in RA, but i got a question about my build:
Glyph of lesser energy
soul bind
insidious parasite
enfeebling
rip enchantment
foul feast
plague sending
res signet

would corrupt enchantment be better? i used soul bind, nd imo it owns. But ic lots of necros running corrupt enchantment. also other improvement that van be made? pls help me

SR 12+1
curses 12+1+1

use a 40//40 curses set
high energy curses set
defensive set